Filed under: Motorsports, SUVs, Green, Audi
Audi to offer diesel in U.S. by 2008
We have total faith in
Audi’s ability to engineer an oil-burning uber-engine after watching
one of its two R10 TDi racers set a new track record at Sebring during qualifying last weekend and take the checkered
flag after 12 hours of endurance racing. Hopefully the trickle down theory of motorsports technology will be in effect
when Audi makes its Q7 sport ute available with a diesel engine in the U.S. by 2008.In addition to the hybrid Q7 we’ve already been promised, the diesel-powered version will feature a 3.0L V6 TDi that generates 230 hp and 369 ft-lbs. of torque. Audi’s engine has already met emissions standards in 45 states, but five remain to reach before the company says it will release the engine in this market. California, which has the strictest emissions standards, accounts for 40-percent of Audi’s sales, so don’t expect to be burning oil in your Q7 until the Golden State’s been satisfied.
[Source: Ward's Auto]
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Kumar 7:26AM (3/23/2006)
Q7....who really cares. We want the A4 and A3 in diesel.
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Steve C. 9:12AM (3/23/2006)
Ditto.
We're already getting hosed on the hybrids, with big upcharges for the hybrid "option". If manufacturers do the same thing with diesels, they are only being greedy.
A nice 4 or 5-cylinder turbo diesel in an A4 would do nicely.
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Steve 9:38AM (3/23/2006)
Dear European Automobile manufacturers:
Please, please, PLEASE bring the fantastic diesel engines that we all read about to the US as soon as possible. Bring them as an option for every model line that you sell so that smart buyers can have the option of purchasing them to reap their benefits.
Also, please forward this to American and Japanese manufacturers who make great diesels in Europe and elsewhere that we don't see here.
Thanks.
ps - California please quit holding up the works!
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Ian 9:54AM (3/23/2006)
I was amused to hear one of Audi's top engineers touting the R10's engine as the most powerful diesel ever built! Obviously he has never been aboard a ship powered by diesels or a submarine;)
The R10 is a super engineering feat, but Audi does not own all the diesel technology.
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PeepinTom 10:00AM (3/23/2006)
I don't know about you guys, but that intake plumbing diagram is hot as hell with the two intercoolers. It is like engine porn.
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klaatu 10:17AM (3/23/2006)
I guess I used to be a diesel fan, but no longer.
I cannot understand your 30-year-old thinking, Steve and the rest of you diesel fans.
Got stuck behind a garbage truck on the commute to work in my Prius today.
It wasn't the GARBAGE that smelled, it was the DIESEL.
Why the hell should California and the other 4 states out east (which also have bad air pollution problems to some extent) do a "free pass" for diesel cars so the potentially carcinogous crap can pollute the rest of our lungs to make it possible for a few diesel car fans to buy this filth?
Just asking.
People "go on" about hybrids not making economic sense.
A 21 MPG Jeep with a clattering, stinking (exhaust AND when fuelling the vehicle) countenance, using fuel which is often quite a LOT more expensive than gasoline, with no provisions to recuperate kinetic ("free") energy as hybrids do - PLUS you have to pay a premium of several thousand for the "privilege" of diesel ownership?!
I'll stick to my Prius, thanks. The "math" adds up for me; I'd have bought a similarly priced mid-sized V6 car of about 20 mpg had I not gotten the Prius. That's an IMMEDIATE payback for us. The Prius obtains TWICE the mileage of the wife's mid-size 5-seater (which stays parked virtually all the time now anyway since we carpool). We're literally using about 1/3 of the fuel we were before buying the Prius and carpooling.
Plus my shoes and hands don't stench like a semi trucker's when I walk into the office.
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Mort 2:02PM (3/20/2008)
Hybrids are fine now...wait until you have to replace
that battery!
Craig 10:19AM (3/23/2006)
Not only Audi, all the other manufacturers need to bring in their diesel models that they have been selling in Europe.
The essential ones are the smaller vehicles with turbo diesel engines, once those are sold here, people will start to view hybrids in the same manner europeans do - why bother?
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Steve 11:08AM (3/23/2006)
You don't think you payed a 'premium' for your hybrid technology? Name me one hybrid car that is cheaper than it's non-hybrid version. Ok, the Prius doesn't have a non-hybrid version, but don't you think it would be cheaper if it did?
By the way, diesels stink because of our crappy diesel fuel here which is full of sulfur. That problem will go away this year when the new fuel is introduced, and the new advanced diesels in Europe are much cleaner burning and quieter operating than the Jeep (and other current) diesels.
Ever been next to a new Mercedes diesel at a stoplight? It doesn't clatter or stink.
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bhtooefr 11:09AM (3/23/2006)
Because diesel gives us a much better route to get off of petroleum?
Because diesel doesn't actually pollute nearly as much as it did back in the day? You probably saw a mid-80's Mack garbage truck that was POURING out smoke, right? Modern diesel cars don't stink like that at all. Actually, do you want to see some modern cars? There's going to be a get together Memorial Day in Fowlerville (I know you've said that you're in MI before...)
Also, would you like to see a Jeep Liberty CRD that gets about 30 MPG? IIRC, someone with one is going to be at that GTG. Wonder how he does it? Simple, you break it in right, and then you just drive it normally. You don't take a zero miles car and test it on an extreme course that isn't representative of normal driving.
As for the stinky fuel... first, the fuel stinks a lot less than it did back in the day. And, the new ULSD will have very little smell. For comparison, biodiesel which has a good smell that isn't overpowering is considered strong-smelling when compared to ULSD.
How many MPG average, using pen and paper (NOT the computer's estimation, those are always inaccurate), do you get on your Prius? Just wondering. Because there are people getting 60 MPG (PEN AND PAPER) in their TDIs, when doing the "drive slowly and as economically as possible" technique. There's one guy who's gotten one 78 MPG tank on his New Beetle that's been modified for fuel economy. Now, of course, 45-50 is more normal.
On fuel cost: First, biodiesel can be used in my old (smoky, yes - but it has zero emissions controls, no turbocharger, and is indirect injection) 1985 Jetta without any modifications except for replacing natural rubber components in the fuel system - which I need to replace anyway, as 21 year old fuel line wears out over time. In a newer TDI, it can be used with ZERO modifications. Now, when peak oil hits, what are you fueling your Prius with? E85? Sorry, your car isn't a Flex Fuel Vehicle. Have fun buying $10/gal gasoline. (That said, at least you're using less petroleum than that guy in an SUV.)
And, another thing: according to the EPA site, a 1985 Jetta diesel costs $944/year to fuel. A 1985 Jetta gasoline engine costs $1249/year to fuel.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=128784 is the thread for the get together that I mentioned, in case you're interested.
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klaatu 11:57AM (3/23/2006)
So, when I went to the UK just last summer and rented a new, intercooled turbo-diesel Vauxhall Zafira to haul four of us, friends, luggage etc all over Scotland and England, and got 40-45 per (US) gallon equivalent, paying $6.50 per (US) gallon for diesel instead of $6 per (US) gallon for "petrol" and had to listen to the clatter clatter clatter and absence of power, that was just my imagination? The thing had a driving position like a friggin' bus, sounded worse.
When I fuelled the thing on low-sulfur DERV (diesel fuel) the resultant stinking shoes and plastic gloves each station thankfully provided, they were my imagination too?
Yeah, I could not get a Prius to rent for love nor money in the UK. So I settled for 30 year old tech, knowing I probably might save a tiny bit on the increased mileage of a diesel. What a mistake.
On my last tankfull, measured MPG was 51 on the Prius, and the temps have been in the 20's up here, plus I'm running Bridgestone Blizzaks which have more rolling resistance than do the Goodyears the Prius came with.
This is a new Prius with a mid-sized (interior), 5 seats, larger than the previous generation Jetta by far (can't speak for the new Jetta, haven't sat in one). As I said, compare that to the wife's 22-24 mpg (measured) on her Sonata V6, with similar room and voom
I realize I'm not going to change the minds of any diesel fanatics (actually driving a Prius might - just might - do that for you, however).
It's like an epiphany when you do switch from diesel to Prius. "Bing!" A 1000 watt light bulb goes on.
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Christian J 12:09PM (3/23/2006)
Diesel smoke contains PAHs. These are badass carcinogens. You think the US can maintain a whole nation of diesel automobiles in the manner required NOT to pour out smoke? HAHA. How great do you think that pristine mercedes is gonna be running in 10 years, geez, even 5 years? I'm not ready for widescale use of diesels in NA just yet. Commerical trucks and ALL pickups and some SUVs, sure, but not all vehicles. That's suicide.
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klaatu 12:12PM (3/23/2006)
Oh by the way, my Prius's 51 mpg measured tank a few days ago was using cruise control a lot, not "driving for maximum economy" at all. Just driving, commuting 80% highway, 20% town, hills, curves, stop lights, some 4-lane (not interstate).
Have to admit that was a pretty good tankfull average, though. Normally, I'm getting about 50 on average tankfull after tankfull in the summer, a bit less in the winter (temps in the teens and twenties), as is normal for any car. Diesels, too. As for the EPA figures, I don't care. For me, real life mileage is what it is. Literally double what I used to get.
And I haven't yet switched to synthetic oil either.
Thanks for the offer about the diesel car meet. I think I'd cause quite a stir bringing the Prius.
Maybe it'd be fun to take you guys for rides and watch your friends faces as we drive off without a sound.
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klaatu 12:24PM (3/23/2006)
Whoops sorry, bhtooefr, forgot to say you did make some very valid and good points about after peak-oil.
Yep, veggie oil, peanut oil, bio-diesel, whatever, you'll be able to drive on that while my Prius cannot run on E85, you're quite right.
Don't forget the thermal depolymerization process, though, (www.changingworldtech.com) in which offal, garbage and sewage can be converted cheaply and easily into light sweet crude oil (actually, almost identical to home heating oil or diesel fuel w/o sulfur or having any road fuel additives). However, it should be mentioned that this stuff can also be converted into - wait for it - gasoline!
And even if we have to use all E10, the Prius is okay with that. Though I lose from 5 to 10% of my MPG which kind of seems dumb (and I've had this same phenomenon on EVERY gasoline fuelled vehicle I've ever run E10 in). Better to use alcohol in E85 flex fuel vehicles, IMHO.
Hopefully both of our next cars will be microturbine hybrids (with ceramic heat regenerator) which theoretically should be able to utilize any combustable fluid. E85? yeah. E10? sure. diesel? ok. bio-diesel? yep. heating oil? just don't let the tax man catch me, but okay. peanut oil? Jimmy, here we thought you were a total loser all these years. Fill 'er up.
Interestingly, Honda makes gas turbine engines now (for light aircraft) and has the expertise..... Volvo has a lot of expertise on automotive turbines, too, Ford, just in case you've forgotten. Ditto, Chrysler.
Or if the hydrogen economy comes into place, we'll all be driving sons-of-hybrids with regenerative braking, that is, fuel-cell vehicles.
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Steve 12:31PM (3/23/2006)
The Prius takes more than 10 seconds to go from 0-60. I wouldn't exactly call that "vroom." In fact, most people would call that slow, even in an SUV or minivan.
But I'm glad you get good gas mileage in your Prius. Just imagine what you could do if they paired a diesel engine with an electric motor. There are a couple of companies working on that now, and I hope they figure out how to make it work. That would be the ultimate in fuel economy.
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faciom 12:54PM (3/23/2006)
I think the press should put what the diesel engine are in perspective for all US customers: in fact I have never seen a good campaign about it. The thing with diesel engine is not only you get almost twice the mileage and last longer (top rpm are usually 2/3 of those of a gas engine), but you get more performance for the bucks. How is that possible? For two reasons: 1) Higher torque at lower RPM; 2) When you buy a car you pay for Toque, not Horse Powers. Let me explain this last point: unless you are a race driver and you take your car to the track, on regular streets and highways you never use full horse powers because you have a speed limit to obey to but you use the torque (ie when you accelerate or when you pass a slower car.) The more torque the better performances, and that's what you should look at when you buy a car. So let's take a look at one example: Mercedes E320 CDI (201hp) Vs. Porsche 911 Carrera (355hp). At first sight this would be a very unfair comparison, and certainly it is if you go on a race track. But what about everyday driving?
Mercedes has A LOT MORE torque (369 lb-ft) than Porsche (295 lb-ft) and even more importantly the mercedes has that torque already available at 1,800 rpm while with the Porsche you have to wait for going all the way up to 4,800 rpm. What does this mean? It means that when you drive on the road and you push the accelerator the Mercedes with give you a lot more push than the Porsche while the fact that you get all that torque at lower RPM means your transmission doesn't need to switch gear in order to give you the power you need as often which translate in a more comfortable driving. And of course, you get 27/37.
Now here the point is to highlight the buyers what they really should pay for when the buy a car. The comparison MB Vs. Porsche is random and of course these are 2 completely different cars with different buyers so a whole new set of consideration should be made. But the importance of torque and RPM availability is completely understimated in US.
Now imagine what you can do with the E 420 V8 sold in Europe with 548 lb-ft available at 2,000 rpm (the brand new ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano has 448 lb-ft available at only 5,600 rpm).
PS: I'm not a mercedes owner and I don't particularly liek mercedes. Volswagen-audi group, volvo, ford etc. all amke excellent performant diesel engines.
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klaatu 1:15PM (3/23/2006)
faciom, torque is great. Yep, diesels have plenty. BUT - they still need a transmission.
Prius II: 335 pound feet of torque (the electric motor alone produces 295 pound feet at ZERO rpm - just exactly as a steam car would). This is in a car weighing 2900 pounds. Yeah, voom - especially accelerating up steep hills (I blow the doors off EVERYONE else in that circumstance if I need to get past them). I LOVE TORQUE.
Yep, 0-60 is in 10.5 seconds in my Prius, "slow" huh?
Yeah. About as "slow" as a mid-1960's Chevy Malibu mid-sized with a 283-V8 and powerglide. Like most of 'em were sold, unless they had the "emphesema special" six ("six in a row won't go"). The 283 car averaged maybe 16 mpg, about 18 with the six. Big-block show-off mobiles with 396's got maybe 11 mpg.
Not to mention the fact that I have a 1/2 second "unfair advantage" at the stop lights, if I need to "get a move on". No torque convertor to spool up, no transmission to wait on shifting. "Voom!" indeed.
Sure you can out accelerate me in some cars, but I'm getting 12 mpg at maximum throttle/acceleration while you're getting what - THREE? TWO? LESS? Yes. Believe it.
Some cars will go faster than a Prius, which tops out at 106 mph. But WHY? In case you hadn't noticed, the speed limits are somewhat lower than 106, and even in Detroit Metro, where I was able to do over 90 (JUST to keep up with traffic), the Prius did fine. And the instant MPG was reading 25 or so. A conventional "Otto cycle" car with barn-door aerodynamics going 90 might get what mileage??? OK a diesel might do better at 90 on the expressway than my Prius - maybe. Maybe not.
Maybe we Americans (AND our European cousins) need to start getting a little bit realistic about the trade-off of performance vs. real world economy if our grandkids are to live a decent life instead of living in a Yurt and milking cows by hand.
Compare the new Camry Hybrid performance and room numbers to their own Prius and you'll find the Prius wins or virtually ties in every category, except 0-60 is about 1 1/2 seconds faster on the Camry. Not a great trade-off in my mind. Plus the Camry costs more. But, each to their own.
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bhtooefr 1:26PM (3/23/2006)
I'll be at that GTG. Just look for the old Jetta with some rust and Ohio plates ;)
The rule of thumb for most of these GTGs is "all dieselheads and interested parties welcome", in case you were wondering. And, on TDIClub, we welcome hybrid drivers to chime in on the various debates we have going on - it brings another perspective in.
FWIW, I wouldn't mind taking a ride in a Prius myself - see what it's like. Maybe someone with a chiptuned TDI would take you for a ride, as well. ;)
And, you do make interesting points about turbine technology. However, I'll make the point that turbines have been experimented with since, what, the 1950's in a Plymouth? Why haven't they been released to the general public?
A point I forgot to make is that hybrids ARE actually right for some people - primarily those that are in stop and go traffic a lot. That's where you get the benefits of regenerative braking after all, right? I actually have recommended hybrids over TDIs to people who have three mile commutes in the city.
However, on the freeway, the weight of the hybrid system is just weight that is nearly useless (unless it's boosting the drive wheels using the electric). I'm sure the Prius's highway advantages would be even more pronounced without the HSD, and with just the 1.5 Atkinson-cycle engine.
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Bob from ALAMN 1:44PM (3/23/2006)
There's a bill introduced yesterday in Minnesota to create incentives for that vehicle everyone talks about, but does not yet exsist -- the plug-in FFV hybrid. There's a Ford plant in St. Paul that could be retooled, if Ford has the insight (no pun intended) to make the investment. Plenty of political support (and E85 pumps) in Minnesota to back this...we will see.
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klaatu 2:39PM (3/23/2006)
Hi bhtooefr. Yep, I think diesels might do somewhat better on the highway than a hybrid, but then again, fuel costs taken into account, you might get a surprise - at least if we're talking an Atkinson cycle engine vs. diesel instead of "light hybrid" Otto cycle vs. diesel, anyhow.
Actually, not to knock my own position, but truth is truth. I tend to actually get (very slightly) better mileage in my Prius on the highway than the city. I'm not alone, either.
Granted, I can get "infinity" MPG for a few minutes here and there when the car is in electric mode.
But I'm talking real-world experience. With steady-state 55 mph or 45 mph driving (obviously depending upon the speed limit area), I've seen absolutely phenomenal numbers - up to 75-80 mpg on the computer on the straight and level at 45 mph - and if the "tankfull" is weighted towards steady-state driving on the highway, it tends to be better - just as a "conventional" car. (Above 40 mph, the Prius tends to always run the Atkinson cycle engine on flat & level).
This is not to say that the Prius is inefficient in town - I just think that people are vastly underestimating the efficiency of the Atkinson cycle engine! I believe that it is, under certain conditions, as efficient as the Diesel Cycle engine.
By the way, you bring up the weight of the battery pack? I think it weighs about 115 pounds, or perhaps twice the difference between my Prius's all alloy Atkinson cycle engine, and a roughly "equivalent performance" 2 litre turbo-diesel (which has to be built strong like an ox to withstand 20 to 1 compression, compared to 13 to 1 expansion cycle for Atkinson). So I'm only "hauling around" about an extra 60 pounds, in reality. Negligible? The recycle of battery question is answered - see prior autoblog entries about this. Toyota's green credentials are safe. (Toyota AND Honda do also build diesel cars for Europe, you may already know).
Why not use the Atkinson Cycle engine in "conventional" cars, then? Lack of torque. This makes it an ideal "marriage partner" for full hybrids (Toyota, Ford, soon Nissan all use it).
As for turbines, the reason you don't see them on the roads now is because they are only "highly efficient" at maximum load (i.e. like when flying). Thus, a "microturbine" (with heat regenerator - i.e. removing heat from exhaust flow in a slowly rotating ceeramic or metal porous drum, and having it taken-up in intake air) combined with a hybrid system could theoretically be superior to or equal to a diesel-hybrid or Atkinson-hybrid - and have the flexibility to use any liquid fuel. The actual turbine would be TINY - the outer case of the actual turbine engine would be about the size/shape of a ladies hat box (ok you're too young to picture that). The size of a small copier? Plus the air filter would be about the same size again, plus the generator, plus the size of the electric motor-generators (could be in the wheels - Mitsubishi's working on this). In other words, the packaging would present issues... but it is not impossible.
A microturbine-hybrid would not be like a Prius - it'd be more like a diesel-electric train engine in how it works. In other words, the turbine would never have a direct connection to the road, as the Prius engine can, but would either be "full on" generating electricity, or "off" - no throttle. ON(mad vacuum cleaner sounds and whooshing of air - highly silenced) or OFF. The electric motor-generator(s) would do all the propulsion work.
I'd be an intermediary step between Prius and fuel-cell cars. Maybe within 5 years? Or do you think we'll see hydrogen and fuel cell cars available that soon? (I don't).
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