Filed under: Car Buying, Concept Cars, Detroit Auto Show, Time Warp, Trends, Coupes, Sports/GTs
Flint says slow down on Camaro, Challenger plans
To say the Chevrolet Camaro and Dodge Challenger (pictured) concepts caused a stir when unveiled at this year's North American International Auto Show in Detroit would be like saying Angelina Jolie or Brad Pitt are ‘just’ another couple of pretty faces to the paparazzi (never mind the public). Comments continue to trickle in here on Autoblog, especially on the Camaro.
So why is Forbes’ Jerry Flint holding up a ‘Slow Down’ sign on bringing both cars to production? Enthusiastic fandom notwithstanding, he questions the practicality of production from the manufacturers’ side.
[Continue after the jump]
Flint points to the costs of building the vehicles, resources that DaimlerChrysler (Challenger) and, especially, General
Motors (Camaro) may need to devote more to vehicles that appeal to the average consumer. DaimlerChrysler has the
advantage here since the Challenger is based on the Chrysler 300 and Dodge Magnum/Charger frame. The company can cut or
increase production depending on demand. GM, on the other hand, would have to add the Camaro to its list of new RWD
vehicles currently in development.
Flint wonders, too, if the current market is large enough to make the investment profitable for either company. Enthusiasm does not necessarily translate to sales. (Remember the Pontiac GTO?) He guesstimates, for example, that GM would need to sell 60,000 Camaros yearly to make it viable. Ford sold 161,000 of its Mustang, arguably the most well-known muscle car, in 2005. Is that pie big enough for three vehicles?
Besides the problems inherent with larger engines, he discusses Toyota Motors and its strategy, as well. The automaker has no well-known muscle vehicle. Instead, it continues to increase the horsepower of its fleet, especially its Camry, the best-selling car in the U.S.
What do you think of Flint’s warning, hogwash or sound advice?
Flint wonders, too, if the current market is large enough to make the investment profitable for either company. Enthusiasm does not necessarily translate to sales. (Remember the Pontiac GTO?) He guesstimates, for example, that GM would need to sell 60,000 Camaros yearly to make it viable. Ford sold 161,000 of its Mustang, arguably the most well-known muscle car, in 2005. Is that pie big enough for three vehicles?
Besides the problems inherent with larger engines, he discusses Toyota Motors and its strategy, as well. The automaker has no well-known muscle vehicle. Instead, it continues to increase the horsepower of its fleet, especially its Camry, the best-selling car in the U.S.
What do you think of Flint’s warning, hogwash or sound advice?
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 3)
Lenard Ingram 3:29PM (2/08/2006)
I think Flint is an old duffer and full of baloney.
He should take a walk on the wild side.
Reply
Nick Haug 3:43PM (2/08/2006)
You have a point PJ. But I would think making 1500 - 3000 a year and pricing it high enough to maintain exclusivity will make it worth the production. The America needs a sound sports model and the Camaro might just start the landslide of quality. As for the Challenger it would be nice just to have one. Instant hit I think, even in the UK.
http://performancegt.com/blog/_archives/2006/1/11/1658547.html
Reply
Rusty 3:51PM (2/08/2006)
A pony car sells on style first, performance second. The GTO got the second part right, with none of the first. No style, no sales. It was one of the butt ugliest cars ever produced. A Cavalier with an awesome platform and drivetrain. The last generation Camaros suffered the same fate. It not only has to be stylish, but classy as well for cross market appeal. The last Camaro appealed to a tiny sliver of the market, primarily prepubescent boys. See Mustang for the right way to do it. This new Camaro would sell a ton, if they do not water it down. I will sell my '03 Cobra to buy one if done right.
Reply
Moto 4:09PM (2/08/2006)
As an employee at DaimlerChrysler's LX Platform Assembly Plant(300/Charger/Magnum), I can tell you that the BUZZ about building the Challenger is certainly existent.
Rumors have already been circulating that they've begun the preliminary process for tooling and are starting to crunch the numbers with regards to logisitics and plant flexibility.
The general concensus is that we'll probably begin producing them in the Summer of '06 for a Feb-Apr '07 release! Thats essentially 1 Calender year away from seeing these beauties at Your local Mopar Dealership.
I'll keep you all posted if the Rumors become Factual!
Reply
James 5:04PM (2/08/2006)
Jerry Flint is not so far off of the beaten path as far as his reasons for not building these tow killer cars...but, as my father has told me, "you can find a million reaasons NOT to do something".
Look, it is expensive for a manufacturer to build these types of vehicles, but it maybe even more expensive for them NOT to. GM especially, as they desperately need to catch up in the appealing design segment. DaimlerChrysler has the auto industry's best weapon in Ralph Gilles, and now that he has moved to the truck platforms (see the killer Nitro that debuted in Chicago...) there is a chance for a few other folks to play ball in the muscle, performance, and luxury segments. GM's fortunes hang on the "business" of building cars and running a manufacturing and financial services, but their reputation depends on their ability to design and build the cars that meet a consumer "certification" called "the cool factor".
I prefer the Challenger because I have always liked the Mopar lineage, but the Camaro is every bit as appealing to traditional and long-time fans and enthusiasts, but it definitely gained some new fans when it was released to the public eye in Detroit this year.
Jerry Flint is a good guy and he is what we need in our world of "by all means, build it and we'll buy it!" enthusiasm. Why? Well, realistically, few of the people who said "I'd buy a Viper if they built one" ever stepped into a dealership to even look at one.
Automotive OEMs have to be extremely careful when they plot the development and manufacturer of vehicles such as these, but in this case both companies need these cars, but for very different reasons. GM to start re-building the corporate and divisional brands, and DaimlerChrysler to reinforce it's current leadership role in domestic design and appeal.
Reply
Bill 5:11PM (2/08/2006)
Jerry Flint's column in Forbes includes a picture of him wearing an ascot. Need I say more?
Reply
Micah 5:14PM (2/08/2006)
Gentleman, get your hands out of your pants for one second.
Flint does makes some good points, and I agree with most of them.
I wanna see a pony-car shoot out as much as the next guy, but is it smart for 3 guys sinking in quicksand to start arm wrestling? I think they've got bigger problems to solve.
Reply
67RS 5:25PM (2/08/2006)
Camaro. Build it. Now.
Reply
Dm 5:48PM (2/08/2006)
Man Moto, you made my day! I am so excited I had to pass your comments onto the forums!
http://www.challengertalk.com/forums/index.php
Reply
Matt 6:02PM (2/08/2006)
If Jerry Flint was alive when Newton was alive, he would say, "slow down on that gravity concept!".
Why? Because he's a moron. And he makes money off of rocking the automotive boat. He always adds nothing. He's like the paragon skeptical grandpa. You're always right when you bet against everything, and never advocate any tangible ideas!
HE'S A PATHALOGICAL MORON.
(Never miss a chance to dig this putz! I like to make fun of him because to me, he embodies what's wrong with American car culture. That someone like him has a job shows that the market is still undereducated.)
Reply
tauceti96 6:10PM (2/08/2006)
This Forbes guy is a crackpot. More bland cars! Cater to the unwashed masses! Image and brand mean nothing! His argument sounds like "the Challenger got way too much fanfare so it shouldn't be built, because clearly not all of them mean to buy it". Folks are yelling at DCX build the damn car and we'll buy it. What more do you want? What more could you ask for? When was the last time people did that with Toyota or Honda? You don't need to consult the magic 8 ball to predict the future of the Challenger so just build the damn thing already.
Reply
Scott 6:23PM (2/08/2006)
Flint should stop commenting on what customers are wanting or willing to pay for..... He has no idea.
Auto mfg that listen to him are where they are for listening to people like this.
Reply
Stephen Lang 7:36PM (2/08/2006)
The Challenger (which I like better) stands a way better chance of actually being made. Chrysler's in better shape, and it's based on an existing (successful) platform. Only negative is overlap with Charger target market. But with the Mustang, I can see DCX wanting their own retro-muscle showpiece. They'll probably do it if they think they will break even a small profit on it.
The Camaro? GM is bleeding too much red. Even as a successful niche vehicle to 'get young people in the showroom', they probably can't swing it. What does that phrase mean anyways? Get them in to look at a Camaro, then send them on their way with an Aveo or Pontiac G6? If they could do something with at least half the sales potential of the Mustang, then maybe. Otherwise no dice. It's sad, but they really need to make some decent basic cars before going chumming with a showroom piece like this.
Reply
speed42 11:23PM (2/08/2006)
#19, I agree GM's late as usual. They seem to have a knack for that.
I disagree, though, on the examples you give about retro not selling. The New Beetle surged then backed off, but seems to still be a good seller for VW. Same for the PT. The Ford GT production is sold out and production is stopping because A. Ford meant it to be a limited edition super car and B. Ford's closing the plant where it's built. The Thunderbird was just done badly from the beginning.
I say Flint was half right.
IMHO, DC has no good reason NOT to build the Challenger. They have the platform, engine and history. GM, however, will have to find a platform, increasing both development cost and time. As much as I'd like to see a new Camaro prowling the streets, I don't think it makes much sense for GM to build it.
GM should have seen this muscle car revival coming and been ready to meet it head on. Too little. Too late. Again.
Reply
Cray 2:28AM (2/09/2006)
If they are going build these cars, do it now before its too late.
In the age of internet people aren't going to forget that these were once concept cars so close to actual production. There are many articles discussing whether cars should be built or not. GM & Dodge are going to look cheap and serious lack of convictions for not following through.
Build it or stop teasing us.
Reply
Anthony Protasiuk 7:55AM (2/09/2006)
Tell Jerry Flint to shut the hell up!!! What is he...COMMUNIST. If he keeps talking nonsense, he just might get his ass kicked by the public for probably putting a jinx on what are true AMERICAN icons. HE should be praising and begging that these cars are brought to the market. Ford can't even keep up with demand of the Mustang....gee what a problem to have. Dude your a dumbass!
Reply
Dan 9:09AM (2/09/2006)
Who reads Forbes for their automotive opinions?
Reply
Devin 9:12AM (2/09/2006)
#9. Eventually the retro phase will pass and the mustang sales will slump, again.
Um... yeah, well, like any phase, retro will pass. However, Mustang sales won't slump, the Ford designers will just redesign the Mustang to make it fit the looks of the current trend. The Mustang will get much more modern looking after 10 years.
Reply
Michael Moulton 2:57PM (2/09/2006)
Whether it's the Camaro or something else, GM _needs_ to get RWD cars back in the showrooms. Still, Chrysler is the only American company that sees this. The bodywork of the Camaro is already designed, putting the money into a good platform for it would be worthwhile, even if the Camaro itself doesn't sell, because it would bring GM a platform they can build competition for the 300/Magnum/Charger on.
Reply
Dodge Challenger 6:30PM (2/09/2006)
I think it makes sense for both companies to make the cars. However, I think its an easier decision for DCX to make due to the nature of the car and the expense necessary up front. The Challenger should be a smaller pill to swallow, IMHO.
If you are interested in the Dodge Challenger, check out http://www.challengertalk.com
Reply