Filed under: Trends
Foreign automakers overestimate horsepower
While domestic automakers were pleased to learn the new SAE rating system for horsepower resulted in power bumps for many engines, including a huge gain for Cadillac's Northstar V8 that jumps 29 horsepower from 440 to 469, many Japanese manufacturers have discovered they'll have to reduce the horsepower ratings for some of the industry's hottest-selling vehicles. The biggest fall happened to Toyota's 3.0L V6 in the Camry, which drops a full 20 horsepower from 210 to 190. As the article points out, suddenly the 235-hp V6 in the Hyundai Sonata is sounding pretty good. Though the engines haven't changed in most cases, these lower horsepower ratings could affect the purchasing decisions of consumers who put a lot of stock in that magic HP number.
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Slim 11:06PM (12/18/2005)
Is the Sonata's V6 horsepower of 235 measured under SAE procedures?
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md 11:06PM (12/18/2005)
So if the engines have not changed, then why does it matter? A camry is not about having the most horespower, its about a decent family hauler. people care way to much about numbers on a piece of paper. besides, the imports aren't really the direction to go if you want to have high horsepower as a big bragging right of your vehicle.
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iQuack 11:06PM (12/18/2005)
There's so much more to overall performance than a horsepower number that it shouldn't matter after a car is test driven.
I tested several cars 2 years ago and two of them were rated at 160 HP. One accelerated MUCH more willingly than the other, so the HP number was meaningless.
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Mike 11:06PM (12/18/2005)
These findings support what I have always observed. Just look at the hp/lbs ratio vs. acceleration numbers of a Honda or Toyota against say a BMW. It looks like Honda and Toyota have been overestimating for a while now.
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Paul 11:06PM (12/18/2005)
Not "Foreign Automakers", "Japanese Automakers". Don't be tarring the Germans with the same brush.
And yes, the informed know that there is much more to a car's performance that HP, but when marketing to the masses, HP seems to be the number that manufacturers lead with.
"People buy horsepower, but they drive torque"
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BF 11:06PM (12/18/2005)
Just another example of the smoke and mirrors marketing of the Japanese automakers. They try to sell horsepower and fuel economy in the same breathe and everyone including the mainstream media believes them. They bash the Big 3 saying why can't you achive the higher MPG at the same hp they Japs do....now we know the truth.
Wonder if there will be any fallout on insurance rates for the higher hp numbers coming out for the Northstar?
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Sid Ghosh 11:06PM (12/18/2005)
iQuack...I agree. I found the I4 Accord quicker than the I4 Mazda6. BUT...a lie is a lie. And no matter how 150HP feels, it's not 160HP.
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md 11:06PM (12/18/2005)
why not require the use of a chasis dyno so the consumers really know how much hp and torque is really getting to the wheels. it definitely won't be what the advertisements suggest, especially with a slushbox.
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Jason Wong 11:06PM (12/18/2005)
Can you imagine the significance had this been the other way around, with domestics over rating HP and the japanese under rating? It would be a spectacular media event. However, since it involves the can't do anything wrong japanese automakers, I'm sure we won't see much more reporting on this.
Witness some of the people above already making excuses for the japanese automakers. Sorry, but you don't over rate by 20 hp when you only have 190 to start, as in the case of the Camry.
Kudos to the americans for always walking softly and carrying a big stick.
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ptschett 11:06PM (12/18/2005)
It's not lying to say that your engine gets X amount of power under standard A, and Y amount of power under standard B. If you took an engine from the '60's which was rated in SAE gross HP and tested it to SAE net or the new SAE standard you'd have 3 different HP ratings. Which one's right?
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Glenn Arlt 11:06PM (12/18/2005)
Most people do not understand that torque and gearing are more important functions of how a car accelerates and horsepower is only a measurement which mostly relates to top speed (also taking into account the amount of drag a vehicle has - it's size and shape). My 2002 Hyundai Sonata had a "brochure" horsepower rating of 181 - same as the international rating - when Canada tested the car and found 170 horsepower, the government got up in arms and then a class action lawsuit was instituted against Hyundai - so I'd be willing to bet that the new V6 in the Sonata has been tested with the latest, new SAE standards. They don't want to repeat their expensive mistake (which provided me with a 72,000 mile warrantee on my car, given by Hyundai by way of apology, then a few hundred dollars, by way of the class action suit). For a short while, Hyundai didn't even advertise any horsepower ratings at all, even in their brochures. SAE horsepower is not the same measurement as is used in other countries (SAE stands for the Society of American Engineers, after all) and in Europe, I believe the DIN standard (Deutch Industry Normen?) is used for domestic use. Why not just adopt the international standard using Kilowatts (kW) to replace horsepower (using a road dynamometer) and nM (newton metres) for a measurement of torque? Everyone on the same page, world-wide.... ah, no, never mind. Makes too much sense. Won't happen.
My Prius (lots of torque from zero RPM) feels as nice to me performance-wise as my Sonata, and the Prius has something like 110 horses (combined maximum of electric and gas - both maximums of both types of engine don't come on at the same speed apparently otherwise it'd have 76+67hp = 143 hp....) because despite the 170 (corrected) hp of the Sonata, it is a "revvy" engine and horsepower is at higher engine speeds (RPH), plus it has a 4 speed transmission - it is frustrating (after having a Prius) to wait on the Sonata to finally rev up and really begin to feel like there is some performance - to only shift to the next gear and bog down somewhat. I'm spoiled by the Prus! I can only imagine what the Accord hybrid must perform like.... but with gas at $2.75 a gallon in my home town (Traverse City) - this being the highest cost gas in the state (tourists, thanks a lot for that) I want the 49 miles per (real) gallon my Prius gets versus the 22.5 the Sonata gets.
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olderty 11:06PM (12/18/2005)
SAE = Society of Automotive Engineers
http://www.sae.org
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ptschett 11:06PM (12/18/2005)
Using road HP doesn't necessarily make sense. Do you really want HP figures that are different between automatics and manuals, or between AWD/FWD/RWD versions of the same vehicle? How about HP figures that could change when you go from RWD to 4WD in an SUV or pickup? And then there's 4-Lo with an extra gear reduction, vs. direct-drive 4-Hi in those vehicles too.
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Devin Lussier 11:06PM (12/18/2005)
I think everyone should just start marketing their 0-60 acceleration times. That's an absolute apples to apples comparison. No variance by transmission or drive modes. Just simply how one car performs compared to another. Luckily those numbers are available for most cars from third-party sites like Edmunds, but not everyone is as well-informed to look there.
I do think that this horsepower change will sway a lot of buyers to Hyundai this, so that's good news especially since that new Sonata is built right here in the U.S.A.
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adrian 11:06PM (12/18/2005)
Honda did take a hit on many of their models now they have switched to the new SAE NET, but as far as I know, the only other makes that have switched are Toyota and GM, while everyone else is still using the old numbers. Does anyone have a chart showing ALL car models from these makes with old and new HP? I just keep on seeing the same examples time and time again like the Corvette engine and Northar V8 vs a few Acrua and Toyotas. What about all the other cars?
Someone on Autoweek forum mentioned the Accord 4cyl and V6, the CRV and the Element all gained HP... don't know if that' correct or not.
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Gary 11:06PM (12/18/2005)
New MSM line:
Even though the new Camry has 20 less horsepower, it still posts the same 0-60 times. How can Toyota do it? Why can't GM or Ford?
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Mal Fuller 11:06PM (12/18/2005)
This article's headline proclaims that "Foreign automakers overestimate horsepower."
Why don't they get a dynamometer instead of guessing in the first place?
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Marc 11:06PM (12/18/2005)
While I am certainly not pleased that My Toyota Matrix has gone down 16 horsepower in 2 years, 180 to 170 to 164, I am pleased with Toyota's response, roadside maintenance and cash. Nice to see Toyota and Honda embracing the new standards wholeheartedly depsite the inevitable backlash. Aside from a couple domestic models (and BTW, the DTS northstar went down 9hp) why cant we get the real numbers from every manufacturer?
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Joshvar 11:06PM (12/18/2005)
Yeah, misleading title...they didn't "overestimate" as "reevaluate under new standards." It'll be good once everyone's measuring using the same standards, because the procedure appears to be more accurate, and the numbers are (hopefully) reflecting that.
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Sid Ghosh 11:06PM (12/18/2005)
I like the idea of 0-60 (0-100km/h for Canada) times. Since I started reading a lot of R&T, I have stopped bothering looking at HP numbers.
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