GM, Chrysler hybrid plans include two-mode system
Yesterday we reported on the agreement made between GM and Chrysler to work on hybrid
technology together. Today I want to take some time to explain what is on the drawing board. What these two giants have
planned is a two-mode full hybrid propulsion architecture.
The hybrids available today are single-mode, comprised of much larger motors than the two-mode system will need. The smaller motors are designed to fit within the space of an automatic transmission. The picture above is the entire system encompassed in what looks like a regular auto-tranny.
This system merges an automatic transmission with hybrid technologies, as the exploded view of the two-mode system shows (the picture with Rick Wagoner and Dieter Zetsche happier than pigs-in-dirt to get some hybrid press). The first mode would aid in around town use. This mode would be in operation until about 40mph, when the second mode would kick in and help the vehicle get the fuel savings at highway mileage also. Most current hybrids do an awesome job at saving fuel in stop and go traffic, but lose out in the highway usage (see pic below).
The first application of this system will be in GM and Dodge full-size trucks starting around the 2007 model year. The configuration of the two mode system would give approximately 25 percent better fuel economy in average city/highway use when installed in a full-size truck. This system also aids in towing pulling-power so its inclusion in a full-size truck application is a perfect fit.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
sparc 10:33PM (12/18/2005)
I'm not sure I understand how this differs from present day hybrids. Obviously it has two motors, one for low vehicle speed, one for high vehicle speed, but how does this improve over the current single motor design? In any given instance you are still just using an electric motor to add suplementary power to the engine. Do you have any more detailed info, Walt?
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Ari 10:33PM (12/18/2005)
Another thing that is different about using electrics (just to add to the mix) - unlike mechanical engines where you have to shift to keep things working efficiently, in an electric motor, if you apply more electricity it just turns faster - there is no real gearing needed. This is why you get so much torque in an electric motor at such low RPMs. So getting back to the matter at hand, I'm not sure how such a two mode system would be helpful, but I obviously don't understand everything that's being said here.
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Charles S 10:33PM (12/18/2005)
Just stepping back for a second, and looking at the big picture. I find it ironic that companies that were so down on hybrids are now making a big PR effort. I don't care if people think hybrids are hypes, but if a company has integrity, it would stand by its principles. If they don't think hybrids will work, then why make them now?
What happened to years and years of gov't funded research to improve cars, and then have the US automakers lobbying against them? So am I to believe that in the last year, some new discovery from GM/DC had made them believe that hybrids are doable?
Folks who complain about hybrids should stay away from these hybrids. The Japanese believe in it and it's not good enough. So why should hybrids from US companies be any better? How can you believe in people who thinks hybrids are myths and hydrogen is a reality?
Sorry, folks, all I see here is just PR for GM/DC to gain a share of the market that they are now losing out on. Silly for them to believe that they can sell SUVs and trucks forever.
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Charles S 10:33PM (12/18/2005)
Here's a link from Autoweek with a little more explaination on why they combine their hybrids with the gearboxes. The system also has two electric motors.
The improvement is 25%. The intended vehicles for this system are the Tahoe and Yukons. Website claims 16/20 for mpg, but in reality, it's probably average of 15 mpg. 25% improvement gets it to about 18-19 range.
Since folks always complain about performance and the gas saved is NOT worth the money, let us guess if the new hybrid Tahoe will be faster or slower than the current model? Folks who roll their eyes about the extra $3500 on hybrids today... can GM/DC make any money at all on this? Yeah, whatever. Good luck, GM, and all the suckers who thinks Japanese hybrids are crap, but would buy this hybrid hype from US companies.
http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=101437
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Walter J Keegan 10:33PM (12/18/2005)
Maybe I can explain this to you guys - because I was one of the ones that poo-poo hybrids four years ago.
What did Japan feed Americans with hybrids? A goofy little Insight that was good for commuting and nothing else? A funny little Gen1 Prius? Useless to those of us that don't have small cars on our radar, or money to buy 1 new car for commuting and one for regular use.
Then, Hybrids started getting useful. In a normal sized Civic. Then Honda mated the electric engine to a V6 and gave us more power. GM added pieces to a full-size and added a generator for more usefullness. Ford gives an Escape.
I don't want a Hybrid for hyrid's sake. IF you can give me better performance and better gas mileage and make it so I'm not driving some freak-show with a digital dash from a 1985 Cavalier, then I'm all for it.
You have to excuse us that had no use for a hybrid the way we were being served them up. Now your cooking them the way I might actually use one, and now I might be interested. That's all. No magic formula.
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Charles S 10:33PM (12/18/2005)
If a two-seater Insight is useless, how is a two-seat Corvette useful?
IF the Toyota didn't offer an anemic Gen1 Prius, which was a success by the way, would there ever be a Gen2 Prius of today?
It is so typical for people to think that a car has to be EVERYTHING from a sports car to a miracle truck that will save people during a tornado. If a person is single, has no friends, moves from town to town, sure, get themselves a truck and I'll shut up about it. But if a family of four, has 3 SUVs and thinks that every one of those cars are used to its full potential, give me a break! If Dad works all the time and needs a car to commute only, then a Honda Insight is a PERFECT 2nd or 3rd car. If Mom has a baby and wants a 4-door sedan, the Gen1 Prius works just as well as any other car.
There is no difference in function between today's Gen2 and Gen1 Prius except it is snazzier, and have a slightly better performance. People don't die from boredom in a Gen1 Prius, and many and still very happy with it.
Find me better reasons to believe that these GM/DC hybrids will be any different than today's hybrids. I can play the devil's advocate just as well and shoot down any reason that is pro-hybrid today.
Folks who don't like hybrids and start liking them later is just experiencing denile. Hybrids hasn't changed in concept. It'll cost more, and it will not perform miracles that all the critics wants.
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Charles S 10:33PM (12/18/2005)
My comments are pushed down so far back now that there will be no one wanting to read my rants anyways, but what the hack...
The core of my comments are concerning the fact that Bob Elton, amoung others, keep on calling hybrids "hype".
If these people hated hybrids before, but think this GM/DC hybrids are good, then these people are truly buying "HYPE" from the US companies. What's the difference with US hybrids now that the Japanese hasn't offered? Hybrid Tahoe, Yukoe, and Durago will save so little gas that it will take just as long for any owner to recoup the cost for the system.
While GM/DC claim the engine size will not change for the new hybrid full-sized SUVs, the changes in the gearing will certainly affect performance. Am I to believe that miracle gear changes for these trucks will suddenly save us all 25% in gas? Not counting the weight of the extra batteries and the extra two electric motor?
People say that hybrid drivetrains are hype because the hybrid engine alone is now was saves gas, but a combination of shortcuts, like reduced weight, tires, etc. So GM/DC claims that they won't reduce the size of the engine, but will improve fuel savings... is that snake oil sales, or they are covering up the fact that they will have to start reducing weight and cut corners elsewhere to compensate for the extra hybrid components?
If hybrids are such failures, then I don't see why GM/DC hybrids are so good. It's marketing to hold off people from ditching the full-size SUVs, in hope that a more fuel efficient SUV are around the corner.
THIS is what I call HYPE.
Sheesh.
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doug hetrick 10:33PM (12/18/2005)
Now all we need is a diesel electric vehical. Sure hope dodge durango, 1500, and dakota will get the V-6 cummins 4.2L soon.
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Steve D 10:33PM (12/18/2005)
Why hybrids work:
When you apply the brakes on your current vehicle you are grinding down your brake pads to stop the car, wasting the kinetic energy of the moving vehicle. A hybrid stops the vehicle by using that kinetic energy to turn a generator, which also slows the vehicle, and then stores that energy in batteries (or a giant capacitor)
When you accellerate the hybrid provides a short burst of power from the electric motor/generator. The electric motor can increase the overall HP of the vehicle, or the gasoline engine can be smaller saving even more gasoline.
Why hybrids don't work:
1. Current hybrid powertrains are expensive enough that the gas they save will never pay for the powertrain over the life of the vehicle. This will change as the technology matures.
2. Hybrids provide a SHORT burst of power, while this is good for city driving (where we waste the most gas) it does nothing for highway mileage.
3. Hybrids are an interm solution until we get fuel cell technology down to a reasonable price. Many of the nay-sayers think we should jump straight to fuel-cells.
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joepajamas 10:33PM (12/18/2005)
I have been watching this effiency debate escalating with regards to the SUV/ Light truck market for a while. I have seen a few interviews that Dieter Zetsche has given, and i believe him to be a pretty smart man. I am typically a Ford guy but i think this man has something special up his sleeve. I believe he has made this deal with GM happen because GM has been researching alternative energy and delivery systems integrated in the there transmissions for quite some time, and have more technologies in this market than D/C. I have also noticed that Cummins has been working on pushing through the EPA light duty truck motors for US markets. I think that D/C will take advantage of emerging Cummins diesel technologies coupled with this new "hybrid" transmission that GM has at the ready, thus making a HUGE leap in economy in the Light truck/SUV. All of this is either orchastrated by Dieter Zetsche or just imagined in my head, and completely speculated onto this forum by me.
Run the numbers of efficiency gains you'd get from a 3.9 litre TDI motor coupled with regenerative braking gains of the hybrid system dumped onto battries. Offset the weight of the battries with an aluminum block diesel, and BLAMO 40 MPG Light truck/ SUV that i would buy.
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joepajamas 10:33PM (12/18/2005)
I have been watching this effiency debate escalating with regards to the SUV/ Light truck market for a while. I have seen a few interviews that Dieter Zetsche has given, and i believe him to be a pretty smart man. I am typically a Ford guy but i think this man has something special up his sleeve. I believe he has made this deal with GM happen because GM has been researching alternative energy and delivery systems integrated in the there transmissions for quite some time, and have more technologies in this market than D/C. I have also noticed that Cummins has been working on pushing through the EPA light duty truck motors for US markets. I think that D/C will take advantage of emerging Cummins diesel technologies coupled with this new "hybrid" transmission that GM has at the ready, thus making a HUGE leap in economy in the Light truck/SUV. All of this is either orchastrated by Dieter Zetsche or just imagined in my head, and completely speculated onto this forum by me.
Run the numbers of efficiency gains you'd get from a 3.9 litre TDI motor coupled with regenerative braking gains of the hybrid system dumped onto battries. Offset the weight of the battries with an aluminum block diesel, and BLAMO 40 MPG Light truck/ SUV that i would buy.
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Olie Lamb 10:33PM (12/18/2005)
There's another reason that people are endorsing hybrids today, who were more sceptical a few years back - with experience, stuff gets better.
The first few generations of anything won't measure up to tho standards of later models, but unless we work with the new system, it won't improve. The first IC automobiles weren't much chop - they were inferior to steam vehicles of the day.
You can try climbing higher on your own little hill, but sometimes you need to move to the next mountain along - to do this, you may need to go lower for a little while.
Hybrids will get (marginally) more effective, and they'll get a whole lot cheaper. In 20 years, even if none of the other technologies are delivering, at least hybrids will help everyone who doesn't drive exclusively on a highway.
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Mark Cohen 10:33PM (12/18/2005)
I was a skeptic but after talking with a couple of Pius owners I put myself on a list and a couple of months later I'm now driving one.
If you build a better mouse trap people will beat down the door to buy it. That is what I have experienced. This is particularly difficult for me as a one who will do almost anything to buy American. The key to success is the elegant simplicity of their continuously variable transmission (if you are interested in the genius of it there is a good elemental explanation at: www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/prius-transmission). This transmission / power integrator is little more then a new use of a standard differential, couple with computer logic. Its simplicity gives me confidence that it will equate to dependability (consumer studies have so far confirmed reliability).
This is a technological bridge that gives us the ability to answer the larger problem of our day, oil. We in short order (5 to 10 years) could impact the energy market until the next leap to hydrogen fuel cells gets here (assuming hydrogen technology proves out). There is something comforting to know that mans use of present technology couple with creativity can still prevail.
To people that like the integration of better performance through the application of technology, I can promise you that you will not be disappointed. This is a Toyota designed better mouse trap. I am only sorry and embarrassed that it was not engineered and brought to market by an American firm.
Mark Cohen
Atlanta Georgia
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